The Vetrospective
Host Dr. Michael Kent explains + breaks down the Science behind the research about our Domestic Companion Animals.
The Vetrospective
Cat Food + Nutrition!
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Dr Michael Kent speaks with UC Davis' Dr. Jennifer A. Larsen to talk Pet food Nutrition again —this time for our Cats! House panthers, little lions — what should they eat? What can't they eat? What if they are exceptional hunters? Get the facts behind the fancy marketing headlines...
Which is kind of fascinating for an animal that evolved with a pretty strict diet of prey, that they could be so metabolically flexible. It's really interesting.
SPEAKER_00Well, I I'm not surprised if any species could be flexible, it would be a cat, right? Hello and welcome to today's episode of Etrospective. This is Dr. Michael Kent, Professor and Radiation Oncologist at the UC Davis School of Veterinary Medicine, and your host. In a previous episode, I had Dr. Jennifer Larson on to talk about dog food. How to pick, you know, what to feed your dog. It was a great discussion, and I know I learned a lot. So, well, in addition to my dog and fish, I have two cats at home. And I thought it'd be great to have her back to talk about feeding cats. Because we all know cats are not dogs. Dr. Larson, welcome back to our show.
SPEAKER_01Thanks so much. It's great to be back.
SPEAKER_00Thank you. So just a recap for those of you who did not listen to the Feeding Your Dog episode. Dr. Larson is a clinical professor in nutrition here at the East Davis School of Veterinary Medicine. She's a board certified specialist in nutrition and runs an amino acid laboratory here at the school, besides being head of our clinical nutrition service. So maybe I'll ask you this first. Nutritionally, why are cats not like dogs?
SPEAKER_01Well, cats are special and for a lot of reasons. I was gonna say I know that, but most notably because they evolved as little carnivores. And that's in contrast to dogs, which essentially evolved as scavengers, essentially. You know, they live sort of in approximation with human habitations, etc. Cats evolved as carnivores and they eat small prey. So they never really had the selection pressure during evolution to build the pathways to make certain nutrients in their bodies. So it's really important that we meet their protein requirements and we make sure that they're getting all the nutrients that they need.
SPEAKER_00So let me go back to that a little bit. You know, most people have learned or think of dogs as carnivores.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So taxonomically they're carnivores.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but what about nutritionally? So how is their selective pressure have have we changed them from wolves? Are wolves carnivores nutritionally?
SPEAKER_01Yes, we've absolutely changed dogs. That's part of the domestication process, which is a biological process that has genetic implications that influence everything from the reproductive behavior of dogs, their affiliative behavior with wanting to live with people, um, their ability to help us with things like herding sheep instead of catching, killing, and eating them. Um, and that influences their nutrition, of course, as well.
SPEAKER_00So, what about with cats? Like, I like to think that my cats want to live with me, you know, as much as my I know my dog does. I think my cats do. So how has that difference in their jobs changed and come out nutritionally as well?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's a great question. And cats have also been domesticated, but the process hasn't been going on for as long as it has for dogs. And cats have a little bit different jobs. They're really important companions and pets for us, of course, but we haven't sort of made cats that will help us with hunting and retrieving things that we hunt and um helping us on farms and those kinds of things. Unless we think of them as like mousers or absolutely cats kind of had the same jobs, right? Yeah. And cats are also not as diverse among cats as dogs are. So for dogs, we have a huge size diversity and job diversity and personality diversity between a Chihuahua and a Great Dane, for example. Cats are pretty much or at least much more similar in body size and behavior compared to dogs.
SPEAKER_00So when I think of cats, and I think of dogs, you know, dogs are most of the time going to be eating, you know, out of the dog food, right? That we provide them, whether that's home cooked, whether that's commercial. But cats now, especially if they're outdoor, indoor, outdoor, sometimes are kind of supplementing their nutrition. They may be eating mice, they may be, unfortunately, eating birds. How does that affect when we're thinking about their nutritional requirements? How does that affect that?
SPEAKER_01A lot of cats still engage in hunting behavior. Yeah. And even for an indoor-only cat, sometimes they're going to be eating little insects in your house or at least killing them. Yeah, mine seem to catch bugs every once in a while. Yeah, and that's very fun for them when a bug gets in the house. It's it's very exciting because that kind of behavior is very self-rewarding to an animal that evolved that way. Yeah. And then I think a lot of people have also had the experience of their cats leaving them um portions or whole um bodies on their doorstep.
SPEAKER_00Presence.
SPEAKER_01Presence, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Hopefully not your bed.
SPEAKER_01Yes. Which apparently means that they just think we are terrible hunters and they're trying to make sure that we survive with their gifts, which is kind of sweet.
SPEAKER_00I yeah, I I'm a terrible hunter, and I'm not gonna eat half the mouse. So sorry. You know, that that goes beyond my dietary. You have a line. Yeah. I have a line. I have many lines. Um so I know that cats can't make certain amino acids like taurine. Can you go through kind of why an amino acid is important and why you know they have these nutritional requirements as kind of a species in a sense?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, cats um do require specific nutrients, and they're really sort of well known for their higher than average protein requirements, especially compared to dogs and compared to people. And that's partly because of their evolution as a carnivore and the way that their sort of metabolic machinery works, is that they need a constant supply of nitrogen and they need to have a constant supply of certain essential amino acids that are really important for a wide range of functions in their body. And as I had sort of alluded to before, they didn't evolve the ability to make those things because they didn't have the pressure evolutionarily to develop those metabolic pathways because those things were always plentiful in the prey that they were consuming.
SPEAKER_00Okay. And specifically, maybe you can tell us about the taurine story with cats, you know, um being a requirement and first not being in foods and then being at it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, taurine is really interesting. And cats' metabolic pathways, I mean, they're very interesting metabolically. They're they're very uh cats are very interesting, so it makes sense. They really very much are. Um, so cats actually have all of the enzymes and metabolic pathways in order to make taurine. Okay. But because of the activities of the different enzymes in those pathways and then the alternate pathways, most of the precursor is instead pushed down another metabolic pathway. So they actually don't make taurine to meet their metabolic needs.
SPEAKER_00So it's kind of like having all the faucets turned on in your house and you're not getting water to the bathroom.
SPEAKER_01Yes, exactly. That's a good analogy.
SPEAKER_00Okay. And we need the taurine why.
SPEAKER_01So taurine is an amino acid. Um, and I think most people have sort of heard the expression that amino acids are the building blocks of protein. And while that's true, taurine is a special amino acid because it's actually not used to make protein. It's always available sort of in its free form. And taurine is really important because it's a small molecule that's important for normal calcium signaling within cells. And muscle cells in particular rely a lot on calcium signaling, especially in the heart. And so taurine deficiency has a lot of different symptoms, including things like poor reproductive performance or um degeneration of the retina that's in the back of the eye, and cats can become blind. But one of the more devastating symptoms that we see with taurine deficiency involves the heart muscle. So the clinical syndrome is referred to as dilated cardiomyopathy or DCM. Yeah. And that just means that the heart muscle gets kind of thinned out and the um heart is kind of big and baggy compared to a normal muscular.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it doesn't really compete anymore.
SPEAKER_01The blood the way that it's supposed to.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And are there other examples of nutrients that cats are really dependent on that maybe we don't think of as much for dogs, for people even?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, vitamin A is another good example. So for us and for dogs and some other species, we can eat beta-carotene and other carotenoid compounds, which are essentially just plant pigments. I think most people are aware that color for vegetables like carrots and sweep and a those contain beta-carotene. That's what makes them orange. Um and yummy. And yummy. And they can use beta-carotene in order to um use that as a source of vitamin A. Cats can't do that though. And again, they have the enzymes available to do that, but most of the precursors are going to be going somewhere else. So cats really need to eat vitamin A as a um a pre-formed form of vitamin A.
SPEAKER_00So are there certain kinds of food that we would feed a cat that could lead to making sure they get all these nutrients or could lead to deficiencies?
SPEAKER_01That's a good question. I think that um some cats are could potentially be fed dog food, and that's inappropriate because they have distinct differences in terms of their nutritional needs compared to dogs. So while dogs can survive and thrive on cat food, the reverse is not true. Cats should not be fed dog food.
SPEAKER_00Oh, my cat occasionally grabs one of my dogs, kibble, which I'm shocked that he lets her do out of the lets them do out of it.
SPEAKER_01The forbidden fruit they can't resist.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So if we're um thinking then about generally what kind of food to feed, do you find that more people want to home cook for their cats, or is that less common?
SPEAKER_01I think it's highly variable. Um, by far, probably kibble dry food, dry commercial food is still the most common way to feed both cats and dogs. Um, that's the most economically viable way for most people. Um, it's also a way to meet all of their nutritional needs in a very shelf-stable way that is safe and has been affected for a effective for a long period of time. Um, there are some people that are interested in feeding diets that are raw, so either frozen or freeze-dried raw. Um, canned food is quite um popular as well. And some people do want to cook for their cats.
SPEAKER_00So, a couple of questions following up on that. Can I just feed them like salmon or canned salmon or canned tuna or other fish I get at the, you know, at the grocery? You know, cats love fish, or at least we all think that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that those kinds of foods are fine as a treat. But if you wanted to feed that as the sole diet, it's really important that it's balanced. So cats require about 40-ish essential nutrients. And it's really important that those are all present in the diet in adequate amounts and appropriate ratios.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_00So if we are going to be feeding canned as their main source, we shouldn't just go get a can of tuna fish and feed that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you should really make sure that you look at the label. Um, and it should be pet food that says that it's complete and balanced for the life stage that your cat is in.
SPEAKER_00So if you have a growing kitten, just like dogs talked about.
SPEAKER_01Yep. Life stage appropriate balanced diets are important. They have a much shorter lifespan than us, unfortunately. And so it's really important that they have a balanced diet. We can get away with feeding, with eating an unbalanced diet for much longer than a dog or cat just based on the scale of their lifespan.
SPEAKER_00And then we were talking about different forms of food. So wet or dry, what's the advantages of each? What's the disadvantages?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So as I mentioned, kibble is going to be the most cost-effective option by far. Um, and partly that's related to um calorie density. So canned food is going to be usually three to four times less calorie dense than dry food. Now, that might be an advantage if you have a cat that has a big appetite because obesity is a huge problem in cats, no pun intended. Um, and obesity has a lot of negative health consequences. And we really want to make sure, ideally, that obesity or unwanted weight gain is prevented. But if it does happen, reversing it is really, really difficult because cats become very thrifty with their calories. And we often need to pretty severely restrict them, which is unpleasant for everybody.
SPEAKER_00I'm gonna talk to you a little bit about that later, but I wanted to ask you first, what about semi-moist foods?
SPEAKER_01Those used to be pretty popular. Yeah. Um, right currently, probably the most popular form of feeding semi-moist is gonna be from treats. So semi-moist are sort of the sort of squishy textured treats.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, not quite dry, not quite wet.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. Um pets find those delicious. They like the texture and the flavor of those. Um, they can dry out pretty quickly, and it's not going to be as cost effective as kibble.
SPEAKER_00So you mentioned earlier also about you know raw diets, but are um most cat foods carbohydrate free or are some carbohydrate free since they're more protein? And I know that's been a fad, at least for dog foods. Has that come up in the cat world?
SPEAKER_01That has come up a lot in the cat world. Um, people have a lot of concerns about carbohydrates. Um, first of all, we don't have any carbohydrates that have been determined to be nutritionally essential. And the term carbohydrates, just to be clear, that encompasses both indigestible carbohydrates, which would be fiber. And fiber is a really important nutrient, still not essential, but is really important for normal gut health. Um, just like us. Yeah, of course. And it's not considered essential for people either, even though I thought it was we're we're continually told to eat more fiber. Um, and then digestible carbohydrates would be things like starches and sugars. Now, of course, sugars aren't going to be present in the diets of cats, and they don't tolerate a lot of simple sugars in their diets as you would expect. But they actually can digest and absorb starch quite well. And there doesn't seem to be any negative health effects related to that. In fact, cats can adjust their metabolism depending on where most of their calories are coming from, either fats or proteins or carbohydrates, they change what they're oxidizing for energy. So, which is kind of fascinating for an animal that evolved with a pretty strict diet of prey, that they can be so metabolically flexible. It's really interesting.
SPEAKER_00Well, I I'm not surprised if any species could be flexible, it would be a cat, right? But now I know certain times you have to restrict things like protein in a cat. Let's say they have renal disease. You know, so how do how do we go about still making it palatable? I know, like, you know, my labrador, I think he'd eat anything we let him. Cats, not so much.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, cats do have a reputation for being picky or selective. Um, really, that relates to their nature as being essentially neophobic, which means that they have a little bit of a suspicion of things that are new. And so we always recommend that when people have kittens or young cats, that they make sure that they expose their cat to a wider range of flavors and textures. Um, cats generally sort of rely on learning that from their mom and their litter mates because what they consider to be a safe something to eat is going to be informed by the other animals around them eating those things. And so it's really not that uncommon for a cat to only be fed one form of food or one flavor of food, and then they become quite fixated on that and they really won't um be very adventurous in trying other things. So it's really important that we address that problem. And then if we have to modify the diet to address a certain disease. Yeah. So kidney disease is very common, especially in senior cats, and more and more of our cats are living longer and longer, which is fantastic. Um, we really have to make sure that we are assessing the current diet and what that cat is used to. We also have to look at what the diet looks like in that individual cat, because if you had 10 cats with kidney disease, they're all going to have pretty individual needs. So how advanced it is. Nutritionally and medically. Yes, of course. Yeah. So that customized, individualized approach applies to both the medical management and the nutritional management of that disease.
SPEAKER_00And that's where a veterinary nutritionist comes in.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and we leverage fat a lot in those cases because cats do find protein to be very tasty, but fat is really tasty too. And so we can leverage fat not just because it gives us more calories per gram than we get from carbohydrates or from protein, um, but because it's also palatable. So those diets for kidney disease are often um pretty robust in their fat content.
SPEAKER_00And what do you think about nutritionally? I know I've talked to some owners, and their cats have stopped eating because of one disease or another, and they are on a special diet. And then, I mean, my advice has always been calories first, you know, if it comes to that. And as a nutritionist, what what do you think?
SPEAKER_01That's a really common challenge. There are lots of diseases that will impact appetite, and there's some treatments and medications that are needed that will also impact appetite. Yeah. And so sometimes we are using different ways to sort of encourage adequate intake of an appropriate diet. Sometimes that might mean making sure the diet is warmed up, um, maybe changing the moisture content with warm water or a little bit of broth. Um, sometimes we recommend changing the site that the animal is fed or the kinds of bowls that are being used. Um, cats in particular have strong opinions about where they're fed and how they're fed. So, for example, a very narrow, high-walled bowl is not going to be very liked by a lot of cats. They don't like smashing their whiskers into a bowl like that. They're sensitive. Yeah. A flat, wide container is a much better way to feed the cat. And so trying to do the sort of that troubleshooting process in terms of can we manage some things about the diet that are making the pet not feel well? Like maybe they're dehydrated or they're anemic, and we can address that medically. Um, and then sort of addressing some of the feeding management things. And then finally, we can make some modifications to the diet itself in terms of adding the warm water. Maybe we add some tasty toppers and those kinds of tricks that we have.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I've always been amazed at how quick cat food will heat up in the microwave. It's like five seconds, and you don't want to burn their mouth because you have to be really careful heating food.
SPEAKER_01It's really important that we make sure we don't have hot spots and those kinds of things. Sometimes I'll recommend people use a warm water bath instead of the microwave, um, just to avoid that. We really don't want to burn their little mouths. No, that would be quite bad.
SPEAKER_00So now as we talk, the other flip side of this is the obese cat that you brought up earlier. So how do you manage that? How do we approach this, especially you know, a single cat household? But then I want you to talk about a multi-cat household too.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, obesity in cats is um really common, which is um very frustrating. Um, and it happens for lots of different reasons. There's certain risk factors. Um, some of them are um human related and some of them are cat related. And so what I mean by that is that a lot more people are keeping their cats inside more because there's lots of dangers. You know, there's cars, there's coyotes, there's other cats and dogs, infectious diseases, hawks. Yes, you know, yeah, it's dangerous world out there.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, but we're not we're we're getting better, but we're not doing a perfect job with the enrichment of keeping their brains healthy. And that in turn affects their body being healthy. The things that they have to look forward to is interactions with you, laying in the sun in front of the window and feeding time, really.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, a laser pointer helps a bit too sometimes, right?
SPEAKER_01Engaging them in chasing things around, maybe throwing toys. Um, sometimes even have people throw individual treats or kibble down the stairs or down the hallway, because cats really like that chase activity. It's very enriching for them. Um, some people will even have cat running wheels. Of like we use sometimes for hamsters and such, but they're cats. Um they're wonderful. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00For the right cat, right?
SPEAKER_01Well, and the right cat not everybody can fit that in their apartment, right?
SPEAKER_00Fair.
SPEAKER_01Um, other things that would potentially increase the risk of unwanted weight gain is the neutering process. Now, making sure that um cats are spayed and neutered is something that we've been advocating in veterinary medicine for a long period of time. There's certainly downsides to humans living with both intact females and intact males.
SPEAKER_00When we first adopted our cats who recently were neutered, we dealt with a lot of those issues.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah. Cat urine has has a distinct odor that is much stronger when they are not neutered. It does. And so um, neutering definitely has impacts on food intake.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And then eventually we'll have impacts on energy expenditure as weight gain results from that food intake. And due from research that has been done on this campus, we know that that increased food intake happens very soon within a couple of days of the neutering procedure. Cats will voluntarily start eating more. So it's really important that owners are aware of that, that after a neutering procedure, that they might have to, and a lot of for a lot of cats decrease the amounts that they were feeding. Some of the other human factors might be that a lot of people assume that free feeding their cats is the way that it should go. And a lot of cats do graze throughout the day. And that's sort of the natural pattern of how cats. Not my cats e. But a lot of cats can't handle that without becoming overweight. And so we still have to make sure that we're feeding them a limited amount throughout the day, even if we're giving it in multiple small meals per day.
SPEAKER_00So what kind of strategies do you use? Let's say if you have one really skinny cat who grazes and you have one maybe chunky kitty like I have?
SPEAKER_01That's a very common problem. Yeah. And a lot of times we can use technology to help us. We do have some microchip-enabled feeders that are quite popular and that work quite well in those instances. Um, sometimes they're little bowls that have like a lid that opens and closes in response to the microchip that the cat has, but you can also use a collar with a microchip in it if your cat is not microchipped. There's also the sort of um cat doors. Um, and you can use those cat doors to separate feedings as well. So instead of having a microchip operating feeder, you can have a cat door either like in a storage bin or maybe a door in your house where only one cat has access to a guest room or a bathroom or something like that. Or you can go the low-tech, low-cost way of just simply teaching your cats how to meal feed and using a bathroom or a bedroom to keep one of the cats in just during the feeding time and then open the door and everybody has free range the rest of the time when food's not available. It does take a little bit of effort one way or the other.
SPEAKER_00I did want to jump back, because this is just how my brain works, to one of these fad diets. And I've heard of people feeding their cats vegetarian and trying to. And I I get it, if you're vegetarian, you might really not like the smell of meat, or you may not morally want it in your house. Can is that possible with a cat, or can you talk to me a little bit about what's out there and what's available?
SPEAKER_01That's a really good question. Um, we do sometimes have um clients that are interested in feeding their cats vegetarian diets, and there are commercial diets that are available that are marketed as cat foods. Um, one of my previous veterinary residents um did a study looking at this. Um, this was a study that was funded by the Center for Companion Animal Health.
SPEAKER_00I do know that being its director. So yes.
SPEAKER_01And Dr. Kanakuba was very interested in veterinary um approaches to feeding and vegetarian diets specifically. And so what we did in that study was we collected all of the vegetarian diets that we could find in the market at that time, and we ended up with 24 diets. Um, some of them were canine diets, some of them were feline diets, and some of them were marketed for both dogs and cats. And what we did in that study was we looked at the labels and made sure that it had a complete and balanced plane for whatever species it was intended to support. And then we looked at the ingredient lists and whether there were amino acid supplements in there and so forth. Then we took a sample of each of those diets and we analyzed them for the amino acid profile. And what we found was that all of the diets that were marketed for cats or for dogs and cats did not meet the amino acid requirements for cats. So, what would that mean? Well, that would mean that potentially over the short or long term, depending on how severe the deficiency was, you would expect to see some clinical signs associated with that deficiency. And we only looked at amino acids. We didn't look at all of the 40 essential nutrients, which would include vitamins and minerals, and we had some concerns about those diets and the overall nutritional adequacy. So, based on what we found in that study, we don't recommend any vegetarian diets for cats.
SPEAKER_00So just jumping back to labels, since you just mentioned them, and this just came into my mind. I know when we were talking last time, we were talking about dog food labels. And are they the same as cat food labels as far as what's reported? Is there anything specific we should be looking for on a cat food label? Or maybe even just to recap a little bit, what you want to look for on a label?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, dogs and cats um diets are going to be regulated the exact same way. So the at the state level and at the federal level, um, the same kind of ingredients are allowed and not allowed. Um, the same kind of things have to be included on the label. So one of the most important parts of the label is often overlooked. People sort of inappropriately focus on things like the ingredient list, which really isn't that unformative. What we really want to look for is the nutritional adequacy statement, sometimes referred to as the AFCO statement or the intended use statement. And basically that tells you whether the diet has a complete and balanced claim. And if it does, um, how the claim was substantiated. And that's either going to be by formulation and comparing the profile of the diet to the nutrient profiles for pet food. And um, it also tells you the species and life stage that the diet is intended to support. So that's gonna be important if you had a growing kitten, for example. You want to make sure that you're feeding a growth appropriate diet.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that makes sense. So maybe it's my perceptions, but it seems that cats are less marketed to than dogs in a sense. Like I we talked last episode about how there's a lot of marketing claims made for dogs and you know, that often come out as nutritional fads per se. And do you think that's the case for cats that there's less of it, or am I just not noticing the advertising?
SPEAKER_01I think that it's shifting. Over the last few years, we have tur seen a shift from um the pet population moving towards smaller dogs and cats. And more and more people are living in smaller places potentially, or they want a pet that's a little more manageable or maybe more portable. Um, or maybe they're living in apartments and those kinds of things. And there's a lot more, there's a lot more people living in cities than in suburban areas and rurally, probably. Um, so there's definitely a shift. Um, the pet food industry is making um more diets in smaller packages, for example. For dogs and cats. For dogs and cats. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And there are people that still want to, you know, get Costco-sized packages of food and so forth, but there's definitely a shift. And I think that um, I think the industry in general and veterinarian um specifically is pretty done with ignoring cats. We still need a lot more research data to support some of the medical treatments and nutritional strategies for cats. Um, there's they've been historically neglected in terms of the data that we have. But in terms of products and marketing, I think we're really moving into a more cat-centric and well-deserved um sort of attention on them.
SPEAKER_00So the attention could have a flip side too, and I'm I'm gonna be a little provocative here, so please bear with me. You know, we're talking about pet food companies, right? I know that many of them support the vet school and nutrition programs not only here but elsewhere. So does this bias your teaching, your research, what you train people on? Uh just if for one to put it crudely, I'd say are you in their pocket? You know, and and uh don't take this wrong. I mean, you know, I think it's important that we talk about this stuff.
SPEAKER_01That's an excellent topic. I think that's something that um there should be a lot of transparency around. Yeah. Um the pet food industry and um the companies that make pet products, they're really important partners for us in veterinary medicine. And it and it, they're really not separate. They a lot of our colleagues work for those companies and and so forth. Employee nutritionists. Of course, yes. They imply employee nutritionists, they imply um veterin specialists and food safety experts and toxicologists, et cetera, agriculture people. Um, and we've had close relationships with several different companies over the sort of lifespan of the veterin school. Um, they're really important um in terms of supporting our educational missions and our clinical missions. Um, they help us improve um patient care. Um, they help us improve um education of veterinary specialists and of our students. Um, they do give us grants, so their financial support is really important. Um, and of course, also people that are specialists like myself. Um, sometimes we do speaking at veterinary conferences on behalf of pet food companies that will, you know, arrange it and pay an honorarium, et cetera. And different people might have different experiences, but I can tell you that I have done that multiple times. I have never had a pet food company ask to um review and change my slides or tell me what to say in terms of recommending diets or anything like that. In fact, I've had a couple of them tell me, um, please don't mention brands at all. It's just a disease management talk, um, which I understand, but um, most practitioners want some practical advice and they want to know exactly what to feed. Exactly. Um, so that makes it really challenging. And there's often going to be more than one product that's going to meet the needs of a specific company.
SPEAKER_00So, what about the grants? Do they give you a grant and you do specific research for them? Or is it um does it direct what research you do? Like, I'm just I just want to make sure we explore this.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, in terms of research, it really depends on exactly what the setting is. So some companies will have an open call for proposals, and sometimes that's going to involve students. And I've been involved in some of those, where you write a proposal and say, this is my research idea for a summer research project for a student or for a resident, and we submit it to the pet food company's scientific advisory board, um, and they decide whether they're going to fund it or not. Um, and so the parameters of that are very well spelled out. And when that research data gets presented at a conference or published in a paper form, and that's always the goal is to publish it in a peer-reviewed journal. The support for the company from the company is always disclosed. Um, there has never, in my experience, been an expectation that the company has access to the data. And in fact, they can't. The data belongs to the University of California.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, or the public if it's, you know, funded federally.
SPEAKER_01Yes, of course. Yeah. And so we actually wouldn't give them access to the data and they wouldn't have veto power on whether things get um published or not. They're just simply acknowledged as funders of the project. Um, in other instances, we work with them more collaboratively, where maybe we come to them or they come to us and we say, we want to do a clinical trial in patients that have a specific disease using the specific strategy or a specific diet. And we all work together to make that happen. And in those cases, that's very transparent. We decide um what the outcome is going to be, um, who's paying for what, and all of that is upfront. And that's all publicly available information. So nothing is a secret.
SPEAKER_00In the paper. Absolutely. Absolutely. So I kind of want to wrap up by asking you what's the future for cat nutrition, cat research? What where do you think the questions are not yet answered, and what do we need to do?
SPEAKER_01Oh, there's so much we need to know. Um, I really do think that some of the data that we can collect um about cats at home is going to be critically important. And so you mean indoor cats? Yeah, cat owners as our partners in data collection.
SPEAKER_00Ah, citizen science.
SPEAKER_01Citizen science, yes. And that might involve technology. So there's definitely some disclosure and ethics. And if we have a camera, for example, on a on a food bowl that shouldn't be collecting audio in the household and those kinds of issues. There's some sensitive data collection issues that should be working. Privacy issues. Exactly. Um, but we have like little um devices that we can put on cat collars that are essentially accelerometers, essentially like a cat fit bit or a activity monitor. Yeah, an activity monitor that will um sort of measure that kind of information. I mean, as you know, when cats come into the veterinary clinic, they're not the same cat that you had at home, right? They're not at all. They're a little fearful. Maybe they're loafing in their carrier or on the table. Depends on the cat. Depends on the cat. But we would really like to know what they're doing at home. Are there different types of diets that might influence their activity? Um, maybe they act differently when they um have more or less water in their diet or if they're on a weight loss plan. So those those kinds of sort of partnerships with cat owners, I think, are going to be more and more important as we try to collect more information on cats.
SPEAKER_00This has been really great. Thank you again for taking the time to join me. Um, I really appreciate it, and I'm sure our listeners do as well. So thank you, Dr. Larson.
SPEAKER_01Thank you so much for having me. It's been fun.
SPEAKER_00It's been great. Thank you. The vetrospective, as with life, takes a village. I want to thank those who suggested I start this project, and everyone who has encouraged and supported me along the way. Particularly I want to thank our producer and director, Dene Blythe Unti, Nancy Bay, who is our program coordinator, our sound mixer, Andy Cowett, and theme music was composed and produced by Tim Gehagen. Thank you all, and we'll see you next time.